The reason why Latino immigrants are bound to assimilate, at least to
some degree, is that unless they outnumbered almost _all_ native-born
Americans (and immigration to that degree would be improbable even if
we had totally open borders), they would need to learn English in order
to communicate with almost all non-Latinos, because most Americans
speak English, not Spanish. American English is a _koine_, and a koine
remains dominant until displaced by another koine. This is for simple,
practical reasons.

Imagine that you are a Latino immigrant. If you speak only Spanish,
you can only speak to other Spanish-speakers, who are a minority except
in certain limited regions. Your social mobility is thus limited to
the _barrios_.

You can learn one other language. If you choose to learn anything
_but_ English, you can now speak to other Latino immigrants and to the
one ethnic group whose language you have learned. But if you learn
English, you can speak to some degree to members of _every_ immigrant
ethnic group, because almost every immigrant to America learns _some_
English.

The only way for this to change would be if so many Latin American
immigrants entered America _so_ fast that the _koine_ became Spanish.
But that would require some sort of _forced_ migration to America -- it
wouldn't happen fast enough naturally even with wholly open borders.

Sincerely Yours,
Jordan

 I HATE sci-fi with a political agenda !
For crying out loud I get hit with politics EVERYWHERE.

Actors...just make freaking movies....I don't give a FREAK what your
political views are !

Musicians....just play good songs.....your politics ? Keep your mouths
shut !

Sci-fi writers....I read sci-fi to ESCAPE. Take me to another time and
place far far away.
Give me aliens and time warps....but your politics ? I DON'T GIVE A
DAMN WHAT YOUR FREAKING POLITICS ARE ! Don't tell me I should think.

I rather pass a kidney stone than read a freaking Leftist sci-fi
diatribe.....*VOMIT* !

And why the heck would anyone want the USA to increase immigration to
raise our population to 400 million ?
Why the heck would people choose to stress our environment and be
packed with humanity like rats in a cage ?
I simply cannot comprehend that.......

"MURS radios" <horseshoe7@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147883141.928838.209180@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Just yesterday in rec.arts.sf.written, I had brought up that no writers
> in the SciFi community were addressing the issue of runaway
> immigration/communism, but that there are MANY recent stories by
> left-leaning authors that
> tend to paint the future as being controlled by "evil" conservatives -
> here are just a few:
>
> Steele's COYOTE trilogy
> Bova's ROCK RATS trilogy
> Baxter's EVOLUTION
>

Bova? Left leaning??

Graphic Queen wrote:
> On Wed, 17 May 2006 19:02:33 GMT, "David Eduardo"
> <amdavid@pacbell.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"Graphic Queen" <pagan@pagan.com> wrote in message
>>news:bsrm625innhn9j6qih87t94ov2iuh4bum9@4ax.com...
>>
>>>On Wed, 17 May 2006 16:59:16 GMT, "David Eduardo"
>>><amdavid@pacbell.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Graphic Queen" <pagan@pagan.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:30cm625m8dtp0unvvdrc96iag3d2741j0l@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 17 May 2006 04:21:48 GMT, "David Eduardo"
>>>>><amdavid@pacbell.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Alcibiades" <still-alcibiades@postamerica.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:km8l62582brvarn53a6j83pek7spktjkm8@4ax.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[Jerry Pournelle is one of the half-dozen smartest men I've ever
>>>>>>>spoken with, and he combines it with real wisdom, routinely. 15 years
>>>>>>>ago he was very non-commital, now he seems to have an unmistakable
>>>>>>>opinion.]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Considering he is a frequent guest and speaker at the Scientology
>>>>>>activities
>>>>>>in LA, I am suspect of anything he says today...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>You don;t like what anyone has to say when it is against your illegals
>>>>>that you love so much.
>>>>
>>>>I did not say that. I used to love Pournelle in Byte, and enjoyed his
>>>>pre-90's books, but since he started showing up at CCHR and similar
>>>>activities, I wonder. Just like I wonder about Tom Cruise.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Tom Cruise is just crazy!!!
>>
>>Gad! We agree again! This is way to often...
>>
>
> I don't have a problem with anyone believing what they want to but Tom
> goes on about things he knows nothing about when it comes to medicine
> and such.

You might want to research Scientology at http://www.entheta.org/ and a
variety of other places.

Whatever else might be said about them, the Scientologists do take the
stand that much of the modern psychiatric establishment isn't too far
different from any other religion. There's a lot to be taken on faith,
and submission to the elder priests is obligatory, etc. Plus, they will
quickly point out that there's far too much drugging of schoolchildren
with dangerous drugs, etc.





--
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool
than to speak foolishness and remove all doubt.
--Aesop

 
FED UP wrote:
> I HATE sci-fi with a political agenda !
> For crying out loud I get hit with politics EVERYWHERE.
>
> Actors...just make freaking movies....I don't give a FREAK what your
> political views are !
>
> Musicians....just play good songs.....your politics ? Keep your mouths
> shut !
>
> Sci-fi writers....I read sci-fi to ESCAPE. Take me to another time and
> place far far away.
> Give me aliens and time warps....but your politics ? I DON'T GIVE A
> DAMN WHAT YOUR FREAKING POLITICS ARE ! Don't tell me I should think.
>
> I rather pass a kidney stone than read a freaking Leftist sci-fi
> diatribe.....*VOMIT* !
>
> And why the heck would anyone want the USA to increase immigration to
> raise our population to 400 million ?
> Why the heck would people choose to stress our environment and be
> packed with humanity like rats in a cage ?
> I simply cannot comprehend that.......

The rich choose it, because they can make a buck off it (and we the
people have to foot the bill for the overburdened social systems...
schools, hospitals, roads, etc.)... the illegals choose it, because
they can make a buck off it (and get subsidized social services). The
young and foolish choose it, because they are young and foolish, and
don't understand the consequences (their "hearts bleed" for the
illegals). Communists choose it, because they see a chance to
implement Mexican-style communism in the USA (if they get enough votes
from illegals, it could very well happen).

This is why you MUST write your congressmen often, to express your
outrage that the US Government is not doing enough to protect the
borders of this country, and is not doing enough to enforce employment
laws against the hiring of illegal aliens. Also, express your outrage
to any of your Senators who are voting in support of Guest Worker
(Amnesty).

Then, VOTE OUT any of the foot-draggers on election day! We are, by
far, in the majority of this issue... it just needs to be made a
PRIORITY.

- Stewart

In article <1147939251.531254.243440@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Penn <pennarin@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Steele's COYOTE trilogy
>
>In that story, when the very technologically-advanced humans come from
>Earth to the new planet, they bring incredible technology and
>ressources...yet end up displacing the locals in their ONE town (a few
>hundred people at best) and making sure that everyone lives in
>martially-enforced poverty. The mission commander's obsession with the
>original settlers bordered on the insane in that no sane commander
>would willfuly generate such pain where none is needed. She could have
>settled a valley a few kilometers away and raised a high-tech town in
>weeks, with water, electricity and heating, uplink to her ship's
>libraries, and airstrip for the shuttles. But NOoooo, she had to stick
>to the original settlers and use guns.

I quit reading Steele (except for the occasional short piece) with his
first book. One of the minor things there was a man making peace with
having murdered his evil ex.
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov

My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".

In article <1147956444.676195.191730@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
FED UP <endtraveler@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I HATE sci-fi with a political agenda !
> For crying out loud I get hit with politics EVERYWHERE.
>
> Actors...just make freaking movies....I don't give a FREAK what your
>political views are !
>
> Musicians....just play good songs.....your politics ? Keep your mouths
>shut !
>
> Sci-fi writers....I read sci-fi to ESCAPE. Take me to another time and
>place far far away.
> Give me aliens and time warps....but your politics ? I DON'T GIVE A
>DAMN WHAT YOUR FREAKING POLITICS ARE ! Don't tell me I should think.

It's probably not possible to write sf with no politics. If you're
making up societies (possibly with backstories), you've got to have
some ideas about how societies and governments work.
>
> I rather pass a kidney stone than read a freaking Leftist sci-fi
>diatribe.....*VOMIT* !

Do you feel the same way about right-wing diatribes?
>
> And why the heck would anyone want the USA to increase immigration to
>raise our population to 400 million ?

Getting good people. Decency.

> Why the heck would people choose to stress our environment and be
>packed with humanity like rats in a cage ?
> I simply cannot comprehend that.......
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov

My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".

Jordan wrote:
> The reason why Latino immigrants are bound to assimilate, at least to
> some degree, is that unless they outnumbered almost _all_ native-born
> Americans (and immigration to that degree would be improbable even if
> we had totally open borders), they would need to learn English in order
> to communicate with almost all non-Latinos, because most Americans
> speak English, not Spanish. American English is a _koine_, and a koine
> remains dominant until displaced by another koine. This is for simple,
> practical reasons.
>
> Imagine that you are a Latino immigrant. If you speak only Spanish,
> you can only speak to other Spanish-speakers, who are a minority except
> in certain limited regions. Your social mobility is thus limited to
> the _barrios_.

Ah, given that the high-school dropout rate for even 3rd generation
Mexican-Americans hovers close to 50 percent, social mobility -- in the
terms most other Americans understand it, meaning going to college and
becoming upper-middle-class -- doesn't much seem to concern them.


> You can learn one other language. If you choose to learn anything
> _but_ English, you can now speak to other Latino immigrants and to the
> one ethnic group whose language you have learned. But if you learn
> English, you can speak to some degree to members of _every_ immigrant
> ethnic group, because almost every immigrant to America learns _some_
> English.
>
> The only way for this to change would be if so many Latin American
> immigrants entered America _so_ fast that the _koine_ became Spanish.
> But that would require some sort of _forced_ migration to America -- it
> wouldn't happen fast enough naturally even with wholly open borders.

Ah, the point you might be missing -- and I can presume only that you
must not very much get out of the house, or your upper-class
neighborhood, and haven't seen what's been happening.

There's more factors at work here that migration, or lack of it.

For one, you have a population which has very decreased growth, and
which has an elder-heavy population curve. Sure, the vast majority of
Americans are anglophone ("english speaking") but they're also aging,
and are demographically moving towards an average age above the
reproductive age. Remember, when the average woman is post-menopausal,
it's very likely that you have a decreasing population of nubiles.

For another thing, you have a population migrating, illegally for large
part, into the USA. Demographically, they are generally young, with an
average age somewhere around 23. At first they were primarily young men
roughly of military age, and towards the buck-private conscript end of
that age bracket. However, increasingly the flood comprises females,
generally in their years of peak fertility. And do to the legal
situation, it is very much in their interests to have a child as an
"anchor baby". The more they have, the harder they are to deport... and
though their children will of course learn to speak English, they'll
almost certainly be primarily speaking Spanish at home, and "home"
includes the neighborhood. Culturally, they'll be equal parts of
all-American, Old Country, and the inevitable new brew of homegrown
culture that emerges in any first-generation immigration population of
any size.

Even in the second generation there's generally enough retention of
Spanish for it to serve as a koine or trade-language. Even if it's used
as an agrammatical pidgin it's still there... and still any newcomers
can use it for trade, without learning the other koine, and they will
continue to prop up the numbers of those who speak it as well or better
than the other koine is spoken.

>
> Sincerely Yours,
> Jordan
>


--
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool
than to speak foolishness and remove all doubt.
--Aesop

FED UP wrote:
> I HATE sci-fi with a political agenda !
> For crying out loud I get hit with politics EVERYWHERE.
>
> Actors...just make freaking movies....I don't give a FREAK what your
> political views are !
>
> Musicians....just play good songs.....your politics ? Keep your mouths
> shut !
>
> Sci-fi writers....I read sci-fi to ESCAPE. Take me to another time and
> place far far away.
> Give me aliens and time warps....but your politics ? I DON'T GIVE A
> DAMN WHAT YOUR FREAKING POLITICS ARE ! Don't tell me I should think.
>
> I rather pass a kidney stone than read a freaking Leftist sci-fi
> diatribe.....*VOMIT* !
>
> And why the heck would anyone want the USA to increase immigration to
> raise our population to 400 million ?
> Why the heck would people choose to stress our environment and be
> packed with humanity like rats in a cage ?
> I simply cannot comprehend that.......
>

What I find amusing in a rather sad way is that everything you see
happening today was predicted repeatedly in most of the classics of SF.

Kornbluth's "the Marching Morons", and we see elements of Orwell's
"1984" and Huxley's "Brave New World" as well.

The thing we don't see is free fusion energy too cheap to meter, or even
sensible people everywhere holding down their reproductive rate and
driving fuel-efficient cars, nor do we see robots replacing slave labor
or near-slave labor.

It's a lot less expensive to use disposable human bodies to be worked to
death, than to develop robots to do the same jobs, right?

And it helps you to hold onto power, if you start a senseless war on
pretenses. It also helps to hold onto power if you make everything so
expensive that people who used to cooperated to rein in excessive power
become obsessed with "getting ahead" and start fighting amongst
themselves and in any case can't afford to travel to find others with
similar opinions, or to even form any opinion of any place much outside
of their own venue, or official tourist vacation destinations.

Look, SF was meant in many cases to drop you headfirst into the results
of present trends.

Then again, sometimes it's just short fiction meant to be read for a
quick laugh in the sciences:

http://www.earthops.net/klaatu/bofh.html




--
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool
than to speak foolishness and remove all doubt.
--Aesop

Am Fri, 19 May 2006 19:29:54 -0400 schrieb T Jr Hardman:
> What I find amusing in a rather sad way is that everything you see
> happening today was predicted repeatedly in most of the classics of SF.
>
> Kornbluth's "the Marching Morons",

Utter nonsense.

mawa

Matthias Warkus <mawarkus@gnome.org> writes:

> Am Fri, 19 May 2006 19:29:54 -0400 schrieb T Jr Hardman:
> > What I find amusing in a rather sad way is that everything you see
> > happening today was predicted repeatedly in most of the classics of SF.
> >
> > Kornbluth's "the Marching Morons",
>
> Utter nonsense.

Don't watch much TV, do you?

SCNR - I'm actually not the bad state of general knowledge in curret
times implies a decline....

Matthias Warkus wrote:
> Am Fri, 19 May 2006 19:29:54 -0400 schrieb T Jr Hardman:
>
>>What I find amusing in a rather sad way is that everything you see
>>happening today was predicted repeatedly in most of the classics of SF.
>>
>>Kornbluth's "the Marching Morons",
>
>
> Utter nonsense.

Well, it's not entirely _that_ bad, yet, but you might try to stop
thinking in absolutes for comparisons, and start looking at trends.

One of the things that Kornbluth -- IIRC an advertising exec -- uses as
a scene-setter in that story is "presentation versus operation". For
example, when riding in one of the new cars, it's just astonishingly
shiny and has all sorts of bells and whistles and evidently it generally
runs down the street at 80. However, the impressing-sounding "80" that
it runs is 80 kilometers/hour, not miles/hour. All of that engine
howling doesn't seem to produce much acceleration, etc.

But the more worrisome contention, the basis for Kornbluth's story, is
that the clear trend of the well-educated and intellectual persons to
fail to reproduce their kind, that's seen all across "the western
world". Everyone with the intelligence to understand the need for
birth-control tends to be using it. While we cannot suggest that genuis
springs only from parents of above-normal intelligence, we certainly can
point out that the intelligentsia aren't particularly known for having
stupid kids, and the children of slightly-sub-par parents aren't
particularly known for even finishing highschool.

I notice that you don't seem to have any remarks to rebut my contention
that we appear to be trending towards authoritarian or at least
undemocratic/unlibertarian governance systems in the West. I'm not sure
which is more doubleplusungood, that you offer no rebuttal (perhaps you
think it would be politically unwise? ;) ) or perhaps that such a
rebuttal isn't possible of being true. To wit, warrantless spying on US
citizens, the deplorable practices at Guantanamo Bay or Abu Ghraib
prison in Iraq, etc etc and even the Canadians have evidently taken a
turn towards right-wing militarism.

But back to Kornbluth; you can't for a moment believe that the majority
of US voters would vote for someone who was clearly and obviously far
smarter than they, could you? Nor could the political machines'
masterminds. Hence, President GW Bush. Nobody thinks he's threatening at
all, as he seems to be more the throne, and less than the power behind
the throne. A figurehead. One sees this rather commonly; one hears from
the spokespeople rather than from anyone who can actually think much.

In the meantime, the one thing I don't think I _ever_ saw in SF -- too
ridiculous to write, I'd guess -- we've been successfully invaded by
Mexico.

Weren't you saying something about "ridiculous"? ;)


--
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool
than to speak foolishness and remove all doubt.
--Aesop

::: Kornbluth's "the Marching Morons",

:: Utter nonsense.

: But the more worrisome contention, the basis for Kornbluth's story, is
: that the clear trend of the well-educated and intellectual persons to
: fail to reproduce their kind, that's seen all across "the western
: world". Everyone with the intelligence to understand the need for
: birth-control tends to be using it.

Yeah. That's the part that's pretty much nonsense.

: While we cannot suggest that genuis springs only from parents of
: above-normal intelligence, we certainly can point out that the
: intelligentsia aren't particularly known for having stupid kids, and
: the children of slightly-sub-par parents aren't particularly known for
: even finishing highschool.

People with exceptional acheivement *are* known, statistically, for
having children of lesser acheivement. And people of exceptional
non-acheivement are known, statisically, for having children of somewhat
greater acheivement. And since the supposed leaching of "genes for
intelligence" from the population, when expressed, has been a stereotype
for most of human existance, I don't see evidence that we've suddenly
turned a corner in that regard, or that it's in the top 20 concerns for
the next few hundred years.

: In the meantime, the one thing I don't think I _ever_ saw in SF -- too
: ridiculous to write, I'd guess -- we've been successfully invaded by
: Mexico.

And you think that's relevant to the "marching moron" context?
Hm. Interesting.

: Weren't you saying something about "ridiculous"? ;)

I don't find the term "ridiculous" in any article upthread from here.
Did I miss something?


Wayne Throop throopw@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw

::: Kornbluth's "the Marching Morons",
:: Utter nonsense.
: Don't watch much TV, do you?

I watch entirely too much TV. And arguably worse, I read and post to usenet.

However, I doubt that differential genetic success is a significant factor.
Never attribute to genetics what can adequately be explained by memetics.


Wayne Throop throopw@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw

Wayne Throop wrote:
> ::: Kornbluth's "the Marching Morons",
> :: Utter nonsense.
> : Don't watch much TV, do you?
>
> I watch entirely too much TV. And arguably worse, I read and post to usenet.
>
> However, I doubt that differential genetic success is a significant factor.
> Never attribute to genetics what can adequately be explained by memetics.

True.

However, with the Marching Morons, it seems to me
that the situation is close to being equally
hopeless whether or not the low IQ of the masses
is due to nature or nurture.

If it is nature (genetic), the only solution is
sterilization.

If it is nurture, the only solution is to
remove the masses children from their parents
and somehow manage to educate them into a
higher IQ. Somehow I think the masses
will object to this.

: Nyrath <nyrath@projectrho.com.INVALID>
: If it is nurture, the only solution is to
: remove the masses children from their parents
: and somehow manage to educate them into a
: higher IQ. Somehow I think the masses
: will object to this.

I dunno. I suspect the 6 or more hours a day that children spend in school
nowdays could acutally be effective, if school was actually intended
to educate children, and all. And parents don't object to it now,
and exercize little oversight to the process. So actual education
*could* be snuck in.

In theory anyways. Yes, I know it seems implausible.


Wayne Throop throopw@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw

Wayne Throop wrote:
> ::: Kornbluth's "the Marching Morons",
>
> :: Utter nonsense.
>
> : But the more worrisome contention, the basis for Kornbluth's story, is
> : that the clear trend of the well-educated and intellectual persons to
> : fail to reproduce their kind, that's seen all across "the western
> : world". Everyone with the intelligence to understand the need for
> : birth-control tends to be using it.
>
> Yeah. That's the part that's pretty much nonsense.

Really? In the USA, right around 1970, the native-born citizens reduced
their rate of reproduction to a level where we hit zero population
growth right around now. Remember, it was initially the elites who led
the trend, starting with college students, young adults, teens, etc.,
but mostly in the upper-middle classes, where people's incomes generally
reflected their academic achievements, which in an era of widespread
college scholarships and inexpensive tuition and inexpensive tuition
loans tended to reflect native intelligence and aptitude more than it
reflected class or hereditary wealth.

>
> : While we cannot suggest that genuis springs only from parents of
> : above-normal intelligence, we certainly can point out that the
> : intelligentsia aren't particularly known for having stupid kids, and
> : the children of slightly-sub-par parents aren't particularly known for
> : even finishing highschool.
>
> People with exceptional acheivement *are* known, statistically, for
> having children of lesser acheivement.

I take it that you mean that geniuses don't generally have children of
the same level of genius. True enough.

> And people of exceptional
> non-acheivement are known, statisically, for having children of somewhat
> greater acheivement.

Statistically, that almost goes without saying. People at the far
extremes are rather unlikely to have children at the same extremes, with
exceptions perhaps for people whose dysfunction is clearly due to
genetic and heritable disorder.


> And since the supposed leaching of "genes for
> intelligence" from the population, when expressed, has been a stereotype
> for most of human existance,

I don't think that statement is supportable, as written.

> I don't see evidence that we've suddenly
> turned a corner in that regard, or that it's in the top 20 concerns for
> the next few hundred years.

Perhaps, then, you can explain the H-1B program in which industry makes
desperate claims that they can't find enough American citizen
intelligentsia to do the specialized work they need done?


> : In the meantime, the one thing I don't think I _ever_ saw in SF -- too
> : ridiculous to write, I'd guess -- we've been successfully invaded by
> : Mexico.
>
> And you think that's relevant to the "marching moron" context?
> Hm. Interesting.

What's interesting is that you seem to think I think that is to what
it's relevant.

What that's relevant to is that all of the people writing stories about
the collapse of Western Civilization never thought that it would simply
slide downhill until even _Mexico_ could successfully invade.


> : Weren't you saying something about "ridiculous"? ;)
>
> I don't find the term "ridiculous" in any article upthread from here.
> Did I miss something?

You seem to have misplaced your thesaurus.


--
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool
than to speak foolishness and remove all doubt.
--Aesop

: T Jr Hardman <blockspam_thardman@thomashardman.com>
: Perhaps, then, you can explain the H-1B program in which industry makes
: desperate claims that they can't find enough American citizen
: intelligentsia to do the specialized work they need done?

Certainly. Faulty memes, not faulty genes.

: What that's relevant to is that all of the people writing stories
: about the collapse of Western Civilization never thought that it would
: simply slide downhill until even _Mexico_ could successfully invade.

How about Cuba? Red Dawn. And scenarios with various elements of
central or south americans gaining ascendancy are not unknown;
futures with esperanto-like spanish languages take over english,
and the seat of industry moves to Brazil or wherever, as the
northamericans get lazy. Sometimes these are acompanied with
some calamity, like war or whatnot, but not always.


Wayne Throop throopw@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw

On Sat, 20 May 2006 18:53:06 -0400, T Jr Hardman
<blockspam_thardman@thomashardman.com> wrote:

>
>What that's relevant to is that all of the people writing stories about
>the collapse of Western Civilization never thought that it would simply
>slide downhill until even _Mexico_ could successfully invade.

And Mexico is a non-Western country, in your paranoid dreams? What
sort of culture do you imagine prevails there? Hindu? Buddhist?

Am Sat, 20 May 2006 18:53:06 -0400 schrieb T Jr Hardman:
> Really? In the USA, right around 1970, the native-born citizens reduced
> their rate of reproduction to a level where we hit zero population
> growth right around now.

And with non-"native-born citizens" consistently outperforming
"native-born citizens" academically, I don't see how this relates to
intelligence or education.

mawa

On Sun, 21 May 2006 15:09:04 +0200, Matthias Warkus
<mawarkus@gnome.org> wrote:

>Am Sat, 20 May 2006 18:53:06 -0400 schrieb T Jr Hardman:
>> Really? In the USA, right around 1970, the native-born citizens reduced
>> their rate of reproduction to a level where we hit zero population
>> growth right around now.
>
>And with non-"native-born citizens" consistently outperforming
>"native-born citizens" academically, I don't see how this relates to
>intelligence or education.
>
>mawa

That is just so much BS that you posted.
--

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an
American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else,
for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin.
But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also,
isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red
flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign
flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English
language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

~~Theodore Roosevelt, 1919

> And why the heck would anyone want the USA to increase immigration to
>raise our population to 400 million ?

<Getting good people. Decency.

For the most part, we are getting the world's trash right now.

It's the nature of our political system that it thrives on idiocy and
ignorance....therefore it's
that which it embraces.
Highly educated europeans....they can't get in here.

The "ideal" immigrant today is an HIV infected, drug addicted,
uneducated Somalian criminal with an insatible libido.
The government loves them so much they've imported thousands of them
to live in my neighborhood.

If I thought going out into the street and began screaming would do
any good I would.

 
"FED UP" <endtraveler@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1148229424.893923.239420@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> And why the heck would anyone want the USA to increase immigration to
>>raise our population to 400 million ?
>
> <Getting good people. Decency.
>
> For the most part, we are getting the world's trash right now.

And they're all posting to Usenet!

Eric D. Berge wrote:
> On Sat, 20 May 2006 18:53:06 -0400, T Jr Hardman
> <blockspam_thardman@thomashardman.com> wrote:
>
>
>>What that's relevant to is that all of the people writing stories about
>>the collapse of Western Civilization never thought that it would simply
>>slide downhill until even _Mexico_ could successfully invade.
>
>
> And Mexico is a non-Western country, in your paranoid dreams? What
> sort of culture do you imagine prevails there? Hindu? Buddhist?

The term "western civilization" implies not only "western", but
"civilization".

At one point in time, Mexico could be considered as such without a
moment's hesitation. At that time, however brutal or dictatorial the
regime, Mexico was actually not far from the level of any other colonial
state founded by any European power. However, as time went on, things
that happened in the rest of the civilization did not happen in Mexico,
nor for that matter, in many part of the rest of Latin America. Such
things would include "socialist" things such as monopoly-busting,
unionization, worker-compensation, workplace-safety, and in particular
subsidies of rural communities. As Mexico failed to keep up with such
positive changes, Mexico fell by the wayside.

Contrast and compare with, for example, Brazil or Argentina. They've got
problems of their own, but Argentina for example doesn't have a majority
of the population being functionally illiterate and condemned to be
peons. Many Mexicans were in that situation, before they decided it was
better to risk going to the USA.

It isn't "Mexico" that is invading, in the light of an open and official
government activity. However, when something like one in 7 people born
in Mexico are now living and working in the USA illegally, and a mass
exodus of over a million persons a year is occurring, still it's an
invasion, albeit mostly unarmed. It's the Rural Mexico, which is rather
far from being the civilization you think of when you are downtown in
Mexico, D.F.






--
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool
than to speak foolishness and remove all doubt.
--Aesop

Matthias Warkus wrote:
> Am Sat, 20 May 2006 18:53:06 -0400 schrieb T Jr Hardman:
>
>>Really? In the USA, right around 1970, the native-born citizens reduced
>>their rate of reproduction to a level where we hit zero population
>>growth right around now.
>
>
> And with non-"native-born citizens" consistently outperforming
> "native-born citizens" academically, I don't see how this relates to
> intelligence or education.

Are complete non-sequiturs on your part any indication of how well you
perform academically?



--
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool
than to speak foolishness and remove all doubt.
--Aesop